What's your opinion on military women wearing the abaya when stationed in Saudi Arabia? Until recently (January 2002) it was a local military rule in Saudi Arabia for military women to wear a Muslim abaya when they left their military installations.

Although an on-going issue for six years in the military environment; the subject reached a national audience in an 18 April 2001 article in USA Today (http:www.usatoday.com/news/washdc/2001-04-24-mcsally.htm)

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Posted: 11 OCT 03:

Respecting another country's religion means that we don't tell them what to do. It does not mean that we have to follow their religion. I would no more wear an abaya any more than I would attend services in a mosque or pray while facing east five times a day. Also, I will not stop others from doing so, if they choose.

Posted: 11 OCT 03:

After all that has happened with anti-Americanism in the world, many of you still don't get it. Your ignorance seems to be the very root of the unfortunate 21st century abhorrence towards western culture.

Just because you 'don't ask Muslims to change their customs while in America' means absolutely nothing. Just as non-Americans (i.e. Muslims) are subjected to the sexual, gluttonous crap that defies all of their religious beliefs through music and TV, so are Americans subjected to the ways of their countries while traveling or living abroad. It simply goes without saying. . .

For example, most of us wear our shoes in our homes in Canada & America and lay our dirty, shoed feet on our coffee tables, etc. So, if presented with a Japanese guest in your home to whom you 'don't ask' to take off his shoes, does this provide you with the freedom of dirtying his family's floors with your Adidas while visiting their home in Japan? Of course not. This simple concept of which some of you seem to be unaware is called 'respect' for other cultures. You can not truly appreciate another's culture until you, yourself have become acculturated.

Some Saudi Muslim women take pride in their religion and in the Abaya. So, make the effort. Wear the Abaya. Learn and appreciate foreign cultures and stop trying to turn everyone into Americans in order to suit your way of life. Your 'freedoms' as Americans DO NOT APPLY OUTSIDE OF AMERICA!! You are guests in foreign lands; and in many situations, unwelcome ones at that.

Feb 01, Jan 30, and a few others hit the nail on the head. Thank god for the Americans who have true sense beyond themselves.

Posted: 25 SEP 03:

As a Canadian I enjoy the same freedoms as our American neighbors, and I to find the idea of wearing an Abaya distasteful in the extreme. Saudi Arabias history of women's rights is abysmally poor, it is not a country I would choose to live in or support in any fashion. The humans rights record for their treatment of migrant workers is equally abysmal. I did live there as a child, and I hated it. However, if I had the misfortune to be posted to Saudi, I would wear the Abaya because it is not my country! My mother wore one when we lived there 18 years ago although she didn't like it, and my father hated it. He refered to it as making her look like an upside down black ice cream cone instead of his wife. But it was not our country, we were guests there and therefore subject to their laws. We do not allow them to have more than one spouse, we do not allow them to import their cultural traditions of Shari'a, we expect them too conform at least broadly to our customs in North America. Muslim girls in high schools are harrased for wearing the Hijab, or head scarf, why should we expect different treatment if we do not conform to their sensibilities? Stating that we as westerners should not be subject to their laws because ours are superior is culturalcentrism and leads only to more hatred and misunderstanding. It is their home, their game, and if we don't like we should stay home!

Posted: 24 JUN 03:

When in Rome, do as the Roman's do.

I am an old soldier who served from 1959 to 1979. I spent all except 4 years outside of conus in many different countries.

The way the American's acquire the reputation of "The Ugly American" is not respecting the customs of the country that they are located in.

When I was in the country of another (as in France, Germany, Japan, Viet Nam & Etc), I respected the custom of the people of that country and did not put them down for beliefs and actions. Every country, every religion has it customs and beliefs and we must learn to respect that.

We are not stationed in other countries because they wanted our assistance, many times we are there for our own country's need and requirements. The host country was gracious enough to allow us to base part of our forces there and we in return must honor their beliefs and customs

Posted: 24 APR 03:

I do not agree with american women soldier or civilian having to wear the mandatory headdrees. I believe that if we in the Continental United States do not force a muslim or any other religious group to part with their customs, that the host country should also respect our values and believes. I am an immigrant from the Dominican Republic, and although my cultur is extremly similar to that of the United States, a lot of people in my country and other countries around the world see the United States as a country with no values. I do not agree with that. It seems that because we let people incorporate their ideas and believes we have defaced the USA when it is entirely the opposite. That is how we demonstrate our freedom. I think that Saudi Arabia was like a lot of countries that look down upon our women. It was also a double standard because the laws in our military prohibit to alter the uniform in any way shape or form.

Posted: 30 Aug 02: "Letter from Col. Martha McSally on the abaya issue:"

Friends and family,

As you recall, the US House of Representatives unanimously passed legislation in May that would finally free US servicewomen from being forced or encouraged to wear the Muslim abaya and abaya headscarf in Saudi. In June, the Senate followed suit with a 93-0 vote on an even stronger language as an amendment to the yearly Defense Authorization Bill. Both versions clearly had the goal of abolishing the former (required) and current (strongly encouraged) policies that continue to degrade our servicewomen. Since there was not ONE dissenting vote in either House of Congress, it should be just a formality to go through a House-Senate conference, finalize language that is a compromise between the two versions, and watch the President sign the bill into law. That was the intent of the process by our Founding Fathers, anyway. You would also think the DoD would get the message finally, and possibly change the policy on their own.

I've stopped expecting rational results when it comes to this issue. As of today, the DoD is attempting to get a loophole written into the final language that would actually codify into law it's "discretion" to force this garb on our servicewomen! With a unanimous vote in both Houses, you would think they wouldn't have a chance, since that would result in the legislation that emerges from conference actually being 180 degrees out from the intent of the unanimous legislation passed!!

However, that is the very danger we face right now, because the Personnel Subcommittee Chairman for the House Armed Services Committee (Rep McHugh-NY) intends to slip that loophole into the final language, leaving Congressmen and Senators with the choice of having to vote against the entire Defense Authorization Bill when they discover what he's done. This is not likely, so the language will stand.

I am writing to everyone I know to ask for your help to thwart this attempt to put US servicewomen back in the burka-like abaya after Congress finally freed them this spring. We have got to intervene before the conference meets the first week in September. Please call Rep McHugh's office (either John Chapla at the House Armed Services Committee: 202-224-4151 or Rep McHugh's personal office: 202-225-4611) to voice opposition to this immediately. Please call your own Congressmen and Senators to alert them of this attempt by Rep McHugh to alter the language behind closed doors during conference. Ask for their support to ensure Rep McHugh is not successful.

I am attaching 3 documents. The 1st is an overall paper on the issue, including the history, and why force protection is an irrational defense. The 2nd is a paper on the status of the legislation, which includes a list of Congressmen/Senators we are targeting. The third is a shell for a letter/email to Congress. Suggest a call followed by email, since conference is the 1st week in September, and it is not likely that letters will get to the attention of the Congressmen/Senators by then.

Please pass this on to as many people as you can!! We cannot let Rep McHugh undermine the unanimous intent of the Congress and force our servicewomen to be treated in this demeaning way by order of a law!

Thanks

Martha McSally

Attachment converted: Macintosh HD:Abaya pap21.ZIP (pZIP/pZIP) (0003D6D8)

Captain Barbara A. Wilson, USAF (Ret), MA, MBA

captbarb@aug.com

Women Veterans - A History of Their Past

http://userpages.aug.com/captbarb

aka "Captain Barb" and "Captain Critical"

"Military Women have always been there - voluntarily!"

Posted: 28 JUN 02:

According to McSally's lawyers Rutherford their was a decision made that the abaya is no longer mandatory or highly encouraged. House of Representatives Votes Unanimously to Abolish U.S. Military Policy Requiring Servicewomen in Saudi Arabia to Wear Muslim Garb
see web page:

http://www.rutherford.org/courts/press.asp#233

Posted: 28 JUN 02: Separation of Church and State...Freedom of Religion

Do either of these ring a bell to the Military??? How righteous of America to make certain that our non-religious children are not forced to say "Under

God" while reciting the Pledge of Allegance in Kindergarten. All the while forcing our women to wear the Abaya. I should feel great shame were I a non-muslim in Saudi Arabia donning the Abaya. America has taken out the "Under God" indeed.

V/r

YN3 D.

Security Vault Clerk

Posted: 15 FEB 02:

According to Saudi law, Western men are NOT ALLOWED to wear Arab male attire on the street. It is a US Department of Defense policy that US

Air Force women will cover other other garments with the abaya, Arab female attire, while on the street. US Department of State women wear

conservative Western dress on the street. The answer is to require all personnel to wear uniform at all times. Period. The end.

Some people may recall that in the early 1960s, Defense Department women (except for the Nurse Corps) were not allowed to serve in Viet Nam,

while there were no restrictions on State Department women. I guess the State Department has fewer internal psychological needs to find ways to

dis-respect its women.

Posted: 8 FEB 02:

One of the most rational arguments that I have heard supporting female soldiers wearing the abaya is to keep them safe and keep them from being the subject of attacks. Isn't that the problem in the first place? Why should we have to wear abayas to be safe? If a foriegn nation asked our male soldiers to wear something religious that hid their identity, for their own protection, the military would stand up against it, after all, why should our soldiers have to hide themselves to be safe when we're in supposed friendly territory? If the country asked this of any specific racial group of our soldiers, there would be no debate. We would stand up and yell that we won't do this to US citizens. What makes it so different since it's females and not an ethnicity?

Posted: 8 FEB 02:

I feel that while serving to protect our country, we're serving our country as soldiers. Not as a Woman and not as a Man. Our men and women have come a long way to equality. Please, please, please don't make us take 3 steps back. Our women wear the "uniform" proudly as soldiers. The abaya is a by-product of Man's self will.

Posted: 8 FEB 02:

Whose law is this anyway? The military should be consistent in all branches on this subject. The position I support is the one that does not separate in order to subordinate. Have women dress the same as the men, for god's sake, this country treats their women like slaves in so many ways, from unequal pay to unequal protection and representation. The military is just another playing field yet to be leveled. I support these women in the military 1000%. Thank goodness for women like Martha McSally, with the guts and determination to make a better world for women in general.

Posted: 1 FEB 02:

I had heard on National Public Radio and read in your venue about Col McSally's suit against the defense department regarding the policy

regarding wearing an abaya.

Having two wonderful daughters, for whom I hold the highest hopes, I'm keenly aware of some of the limits women experience at the hands of men.

Nevertheless, I was not impressed with McSallys reasons for bringing such a suit against the department. While I respect her right as a woman and

appreciate her sensitivity to respect her religion, I believe that being a member of our armed services precludes certain things, one of which is a

sensitivity to the host country in which she is based. If she desires not to be sensitive to the regional, religious or social customs of the land/country in which she is based, then perhaps she is misplaced in her career in our armed forces.

We are indeed fortunate as a country to have been given access to Saudi Arabia, which gives us a strategic position in the gulf. We are not conquerors there, we are guests. As such, we need to be sensitive to the customs, both religious and cultural. Perhaps a prerequisite to being

stationed there, should be a cultural indoctrination and sign-off by he/she being stationed, to abide by and demonstrate sensitivity to these

differences.

I love our country dearly and would not desire to be a citizen of any other. However, in my vast and extensive travels, I have noticed what seems

like an ever increasing indifference by our citizens to the religious and cultural customs of others. It is as if we believe the tenents upon which we live our lives here in the US are a right of ours overseas. They are not.

I have spent considerable time in Saudi Arabia with my wife. Neither she nor I appreciate or like some of the customs of that land. Still, while we

are there, we realize we are guests, not citizens, and if nothing more then out of common respect for their customs, we honor them.

Her statement that the "guys" can wear jeans, but she needs to wear the abaya, clearly demonstrates that she has a very shallow understanding of

Saudi culture. Again, perhaps she should remain stationed in the states, receive cross-cultural training, or give up her military career altogether

to fly for a domestic carrier.

Deeply saddening indeed to learn of her efforts. They clearly have a tone more of self edification and wanting the world to conform to her view, then

seeking equality for women.

Posted: 1 FEB 02:

I believe you have to respect the culture of whatever country you are in, irregardless if you are military or civilian. It is your responsibility to learn about the culture and laws that may affect you before you go, and you should do your best to follow them. If it is a war situation and you're in a country doing battle with that country, then of course this does not apply. But if you are in a country as an ally or a guest, then you should follow the culture and laws. If nothing else it is a sign of respect--and even if you don't follow everything perfectly, it shows the people that you are willing to try, and they will appreciate it. If you don't, then it opens the door to misunderstanding and/or hostility. This applies to men as well as to women.

Posted: 30 JAN 02: Opinion on Wearing The Abaya From an Experienced Civilian

We were in the city of Taif before, during and after the Gulf War - between 3 and 4 years total. Although we were non-military, we did meet some of the younger troops who were stationed there. In most cases, I felt they were not respectful of the customs of a country that was not their own. Several we met were very hostile toward the local traditions, as if, they were still in the U.S. I heard one young American man (who stood out a mile wearing a very loose-fitting tank top and shorts in the grocery store), yelling at a clerk "I'M LOOKIN' FOR GUACAMOLE, MAN!! DO YOU KNOW WHAT GUACAMOLE IS??!!!" You could hear him all over the store. We were embarrassed. Another time, we heard a similar refrain in another store over T-bone steak.

I, too, felt the abaya was a protection. In the coastal city of Jeddah, I could go without it if I really wanted to, but I was treated much more courteously when I wore it. I became so accustomed to it, that when we went to live in Egypt, I felt naked in just my American clothes. Once I became used to wearing it, I assumed a "when in Rome" attitude about it. The time period for me to come to a "when in Rome" attitude was not quick. It took me over a year to stop being angry at the restrictions placed upon me. My husband and I also had to force ourselves not to hold hands, etc., in public. Unlike members of the military, my option was "Hey, if you don't like it, go home."

For military personnel who will not be stationed in Saudi long enough to get over the culture shock, the requirements of the military seem like a

protection for them, keeping them out of the culture clashes that could occur when they are homesick and hostile.

I usually rode in the front seat of our Bronco, and had no trouble about that. I got quite used to not driving myself around, but then my husband

was unusually accommodating about taking me wherever, whenever. Not all husbands were. It helped that we lived in a small town and the traffic

wasn't too crazy, as I understand it is in Riyadh, for instance.

Posted: 30 JAN 02: From a Military Woman Formerly Stationed in Saudi Arabia

I, too, was there during the Persian Gulf War and experienced quite a bit in a short period of time.

I am one female who does not support what the LTC is doing for several reasons. My first bone of contention with her is that she is representing

herself as fighting for all the services. The policy of wearing the abaya is different for each service. I was Army and we only had to wear it if we

were not in uniform and the other strictures that she sites (like riding in the back seat) are not policies of the other services. She also alludes

that men aren't held to customs, which I know they are. The whole basis of her argument is built around that women who work for Department of Defense and not the military do not have to wear it. She does not consider that these women are not in daily contact with the locals and move in the upper crust of Saudi Arabian society.

She also, at least in my eyes, forgets that Saudi is not the United States and that we are guests in their country. I may not care for their culture,

but it is their culture not ours. I never found wearing the abaya as an inconvenience, but in many ways a protection. I found many of the women

who were civilians there chose to wear it for the same reasons that I did. As military women we went into places that were not "tourist"

friendly and the religious police as well as the man population could be very vicious. Even in uniform, there were problems, but in the abaya you

blended into the local scene and could go virtually unnoticed.

As a LTC, common sense could keep her from harm, but my concern is with the young troops that are stationed there. They don't always display

common sense and it does get them into bad situations. Not on purpose, but youth and vigor can overcome common sense on too many occasions.

I thought perhaps you might like a different slant on this issue.

Posted: 6 DEC 01

American female soldiers should absolutely NOT be REQUIRED to support a mysogyist and repressive view of women by dressing in a way that symbolizes this repression. Women in Saudi culture are denied many freedoms and rights, and it must be absolutely clear that American women (and men) do not support this view. A personal decision to dress according to native customs in order to remain inconspicuous is exactly that - a personal matter.

Posted: 25 Nov 01:

As a member of the US forces I feel we should all be treated the same no matter where we serve - we wear the same uniform and are paid the same based on our rank - NO ONE should be allowed to dictate what one population of

our service should be treated as -- if one group is dictated to dress a certain way -- then ALL of us should do the same -- I see neither male or female while serving -- I see only blue or green -- depending on the service -- until we all see ourselves as one color we will never be one and we will never be victorious in our global missions

Posted: 9 Oct 01: "It is a Local Military Rule in Saudi Arabia for Military Women To Wear A Muslim Abaya When They Leave Their Military Installations"

Having served at the 22nd Support Command Hqs (King Abdul Aziz Air Force Base, Dhahran) during the Gulf War, I am well aware of the issues & the American female response. I was NOT a young soldier, having turned 41 during the war. HOWEVER...I was a soldier in the United States Army. If you peruse the regulations on the wearing of a military uniform (regardless of your service branch)...you will NOT find the wear of any religious or socially acceptable non-military clothing item mentioned as being worn, over or in part while in uniform. While in the town of Dhahran, we were not required to wear the Saudi abaya (known by other names in the various Arab states). For a brief period of time, we were allowed to wear civvies off base. HOWEVER...that didn't last very long. Seems American troops like to wear shorts during off-duty hours. DUH...Saudi Arabia WAS NOT Kansas! AS AMERICANS, WE HAVE RIGHTS...IN OUR OWN COUNTRY...NOT THEIRS! Rather then being restricted to the base, we wore our uniforms 24/7. I found it comforting that even the male soldiers would do so in an effort to stay uniform with us. Not to say that we sometimes didn't roll our sleeves up. That went along with sitting in the front sit of a vehicle...subtle defiance against losing our rights. The Saudi Mutawa were beginning to act out against us just prior to my return home. It amazes me that no one has mentioned having to get on Saudi buses (leased by the US) through the back doors or having to enter the base gym through the back doors. Even our most chauvinistic soldiers DIDN'T like our treatment. Understand that my experiences during the actual war were far more pleasant, then afterwards. If anyone wants to know more...feel free to e-mail me.

FIRST IN SUPPORT!

Rita

Disabled Gulf War Veteran

DamePEZ@gator.net

Posted: 9 Oct 01:

If the military seems to mandate the female soldier wear the abaya while stationed in Saudi Arabia then do not send them there! To wear anything other than the uniform of the military branch of service one is serving in goes against everything the military teaches and instills in its recruits in basic training. Another on this thread said it best, "America does not mandate a Saudi woman wear our clothes when in America. Why should we have to stoop to their customs, their dress and their orders? We belong to the US government, not the Saudi Government. By stooping to wear their dress dictates to them we are under their rule. Nonsense! One government rule is enough! I won't stand for two. I have earned and been born with too many freedoms in America to even consider such an idea unless it is Halloween and that is my choice of costume. I say put the men in their native dress as well. Then let's see how long they last. To insist female American soldiers wear the abaya violates our freedoms as an American, our equal rights issues and our constitutional right of due process. The only way I would consider the abaya is if the male soldier were mandated to do the same as me. If not, then send our women home! Women have no rights in Saudi Arabia anyway. This

is hostile territory for the female of any species. Send them home and end this.

Posted: 16 Jul 01:

After six trips to the sandbox, going MOP Level 4 Ninja babe doesn't bother me. I feel more comfortable when I don't stick out in a crowd. Respect for the country's customs should be paramount. We are not an occupying force, we are there as paid guests to protect the interests of our allies. As odd as it seems, this respect could save our folks from being a terrorist target in the long run. When I deployed for Elf One, we played by their rules and no one ever got blown up or shot at. After the Gulf War and our troops stopped wearing the Abayas and acting more aggressive towards the locals (driving by and flipping them off for example), it dehumanized us. They bombed us at Riyadh and Dhahran. I can put up with the inconvenience.

Posted: 16 Jul 01:

I am very glad that I am a retired military woman and will never be sent to serve in Saudi Arabia. What an insult to a soldier who was always very proud to wear the uniform of her country! To think that the military would tell women that they have to wear a Muslim abaya when they leave post -- what is this? When did we start letting foreign customs dictate our policies? It is my suspicion that, if this were a policy directed at male soldiers, they would rise up in arms over the whole thing. Are we weenies or what? Come on, women of the world, let us rise up and throw off the chains of oppression which men would desire to shackle us with, and let us soar to equality and freedom!!!!

Posted: 3 Jul 01:

I am a Gulf War vet and I had to wear an abaya while in Saudi. I thought that it was very uncalled for. I am not Muslim and should not have been subject to their customs. When they come to America, we do not make them stop wearing their ethnic or religious outfits.

Posted: 29 Jun 01:

I agree that we should be safe and try not to attract the attention of terrorists, the Saudi Mutawa or anyone else who had a problem with women. No one wants to die for something as stupid as what those terrorists believe in. However, the last thing I want to do is don the garb of some other religion, not my own, just to cover my own hide. It makes me feel like I'm denying my religion for my own safety, and that is something I would never want to do! It seems so cowardly... Still, I'd rather live to fight them another day then die. So it would be a very difficult decision for me to actually wear the abaya; I truly don't believe I could do it. Fortunately the chances of me going to Saudi are slim but you never know right? This is the military after all; we don't always have a choice. It would require a lot of serious thinking if I ever get faced with an assignment there. I would not want to cop out because that wouldn't be fair either. Unfortunately at this time our government and Saudi's government aren't willing to take a firm enough stand against the terrorists to ensure female soldiers' safety.

Posted: 22 Jun 01: The Abaya Issue

Our military women should not be required to wear the abaya while stationed in Saudi Arabia. They were issued a uniform and that is what they should wear. Likewise when Muslim (or any other culture) women live in the US and
choose to wear their traditional garb, they should not be pressured to wear western clothing either. I understand the need for diplomacy when dealing with other countries, but with all the aid we provide to the world, our leaders need to find their (ummm how can I politely say this) courage to take a firm stand on this issue. I'm a female US Army veteran and thank my lucky stars that I was born in a country where women can "Be All That They Can Be!"

Posted: 22 Jun 01: Abaya and Uniform

I read posted comments with great interest. Having lived in Saudi Arabia for three years (as a civilian) I can relate to the frustration of having to cover yourself almost head-to-toe every time you set outside of your confines.

You do not want to attract any form of attention, especially from the likes of Saudi mutawa, when you're in a foreign country. This is a common sense approach, a relatively cautionary measure that you can take to protect yourself. So when not in uniform, wear it! If you get one that's long enough you can manage to wear shorts or tank tops underneath--I know from experience.

As for wearing abaya on top of uniform, common sense should dictate the use of it. Military uniform in general provides adequate coverage and therefore indecent exposure(!) is not a matter of question. But the drive behind this particular military directive is not necessary to respect Saudi's Muslim culture but to protect female military personnel. Women not/not in abaya will attract attention, regardless of how conservatively dressed they are, and probably the wrath of the Saudi Mutawa. It is very possible that especially women in uniform & not in abaya are more likely to attract attention from potential terrorists.

Saudi Arabia as a government may be our ally, but not all Saudis are. It seems more sensible to wear abaya and not be marked as some Islamic fundamentalist group's next target.

Posted: 13 Jun 01:

I just read an AF Times article, were it stated that the women in Saudi Arabia do not have to wear an Abaya. I think the policy should be changed to highly recommended, but not required. It is nice to "when in Rome, do as the Romans", but when a policy is meant to segregate American Service Women from everyone else, I think it's a dangerous step to take.

Lt in AF

Posted: 12 Jun 01: Muslim Abaya

First and foremost is If I were an American soldier I would wear what I was issued, that is your uniform. Second I would try my hardest not to get a hardship tour to Saudi! I do NOT like being told by a foreign government what I'm to wear. I am an American woman and if they want to gawk at me that's there problem! at least I know I'm respected as a citizen, a humane being and I have CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS that enforce these ideals in my country. I'm not some piece of meat who is treated worse than a dog and made to cover up to protect my womanhood, what's up with that??? I'm proud to be a woman! I don't hide the fact that I'm different from the opposite sex-oh my not that! and I'm not Muslim. I'm sure if the United States Military stood up for you they would defend your right to wear OUR COUNTRIES Clothing requirements instead of coddling the "Men" from some oil happy third world country! I'm sure if "they" visited our country they would go straight to the nearest Levi and Adidas outlet Mall and get happy!

Posted: 12 Jun 01:

I believe that female soldiers stationed in Saudi Arabia should not have to wear the abaya. They have enough sense (at least I hope they do) to dress respectfully and appropriately (i.e., long sleeves, skirts, head covered) without being forced to wear a constricting and demeaning garment such as the abaya. They are not Muslims, and they are not citizens of a Muslim state, and while they are not except from local laws, there is a limit that needs to be drawn.

Posted: 19 May 01:

I believe that as Americans we should only dress in our uniform, the women who come to America aren't made to dress like us. We are there because the government wanted our help.