attitude of BT, WOC question

[Anonymous]

After reading numerous posts here about OCS and the educational/ASVAB reqments I dont think I qualify. I will graduate w/ 2 degrees this Spring semester '00 and Ive taken the ASVAB (93) but I look on the paper and I cant determine this GT and EL scores and how they could possibly get as high at 115 (if thats the reqment) I wonder, if I do not qualify for the OCS and I go enlisted, is the attitude in Marine BT for its enlisted- is it waxing floors and doing 'grunt' work makes a better Marine? I am DEP'd into the AF and I know that I dont want to go enlisted in there. (as knowing that waxing floors w/ my belt and washing jets (active) are not what I went to school for exactly) I would consider going enlisted in the USMC if I knew that the BT is oriented to the creation of a stronger, able bodied soldier/person and not someone whos practicing to do the same 'tasks' when theyre active duty.

Additonally, what difference is there between WOC and OCS..

Thanks.. JEN

jenatasu@aol.com

[Anonymous]

First of all Jen, if you're considering the Corps, you need to do a little more research on what enlisted Marines do. They do not "wax floors" all day long on active duty and if they do in boot camp it's during mess & maintenance week. Marine Corps boot camp is not geared toward making people "practice tasks" that they're going to doing on active duty. Marine Corps boot camp is what makes someone a Marine.

Enlisted Marines are universally considered the "backbone of the Marine Corps". As the saying goes, 'If you want something done, you ask an enlisted Marine.' This is not to say Officers don't do anything, but for example: in the Marine Corps, it is common for a Staff Sgt. or other NCO (non-commissioned officer) to do the same job that in the Army or Air Force say a Lt. would be assigned to do. I certainly think that speaks to the capability of the individual enlisted Marine. Their training, motivation and dedication to the Corps and the task at hand is superior. (Of course so is that of the Marine officer). It is also common that an enlisted like a Lance Corporal would be given responsibilities that a Sgt. in some other branch of service would do.

What is taught in Marine Corps at boot camp are the core values of honor, courage and commitment. Do you have moral and physical courage? Do you act with honor in and out of uniform? Are you committed to serving your country, Corps, and your fellow Marines, whether it be waxing floors or running a batallion--?

The purpose of doing those nasty little "tasks" like cleaning the floor with a toothbrush druing boot is several-fold, here are only some reasons: to #1 let you know that you're not so great that you can't get your hands dirty, #2 to build unit cohesion through shared hardship and misery and #3 to make you "go on" in the face of adversity, i.e., life isn't fair. When the going gets really tough and it really really stinks, are ya gonna just quit, or are you gonna get the job done?? This is what separates the Marine Corps from everyone else. Marines just don't quit.

If you don't want to get your hands dirty, degree or not, I'd not consider the Marine Corps. I have a degree myself. But if you don't mind hard work, I'd visit www.parrisisland.com and some of the Marine links on that site to get a better idea of what it's all about. As far as what you go to school for, remember that in the military, esp. in the Corps, it's what They want you to do that takes precedence, no matter what you got a degree or two in. For some people that's tough to handle. The AF may be a little more accomodating in that respect.

Good luck,

M. Anderson

P.S.:If you got a 93 on the asvab, you probably got the 120 EL to qualify for OCS. Just get a recruiter to decipher the jargon for you.


:
: After reading numerous posts here about OCS and the educational/ASVAB
: reqments I dont think I qualify. I will graduate w/ 2 degrees this Spring
: semester '00 and Ive taken the ASVAB (93) but I look on the paper and I
: cant determine this GT and EL scores and how they could possibly get as
: high at 115 (if thats the reqment) I wonder, if I do not qualify for the
: OCS and I go enlisted, is the attitude in Marine BT for its enlisted- is
: it waxing floors and doing 'grunt' work makes a better Marine? I am DEP'd
: into the AF and I know that I dont want to go enlisted in there. (as
: knowing that waxing floors w/ my belt and washing jets (active) are not
: what I went to school for exactly) I would consider going enlisted in the
: USMC if I knew that the BT is oriented to the creation of a stronger, able
: bodied soldier/person and not someone whos practicing to do the same
: 'tasks' when theyre active duty.
:
: Additonally, what difference is there between WOC and OCS..
:
: Thanks.. JEN


zuma50@hotmail.com

[Anonymous]

Hello there... I just wanted to recommend a book to you: Making the Corps, by Daniel Da Cruz (I think). It'll give you an idea of the culture of the corps, and what boot camp is like. Plus it's just a good read. Good luck with your decision!

Tracy (who's still trying to decide herself, actually...)

VZNH@aol.com

[Anonymous]

Tracy--Making the Corps is by Thomas Ricks---Da Cruz wrote Boot which is another excellent one. Making the Corps is my FAVORITE book....OOHRAH!

Jen, one question I've already emailed you--If you're not "into" AF DEP, and don't like what they're offering, why don't you get out? I mean, you could. Better now than later. Before you get locked into something you know you're not going to like.

I'm personally DEPped into enlisted reserves, and in about a year or 2 I'm going to try for OCS myself. I would personally rather just stay enlisted-as far as I'm concerned that's where it's at. But I'm 29, and being a 29 year old Lance Corporal doesn't thrill me career-wise or financially. You're older too so that's something to think about.

Like I said go to the recruiter! You too Tracy! What are ya waiting for!~ :o) Between them and us we'll get you squared away and you'll be shipping with me & Aimee & Holly (and Ellis??) in 20-something days---LOL

Semper Fi,

Mon


:
: Hello there... I just wanted to recommend a book to you: Making the Corps, by
: Daniel Da Cruz (I think). It'll give you an idea of the culture of the
: corps, and what boot camp is like. Plus it's just a good read. Good luck
: with your decision!
:
: Tracy (who's still trying to decide herself, actually...)


zuma50@hotmail.com

[Anonymous]

Anderson, I would like to make a comment about what enlisted do. First of all about 80% of enlisted Marines do not make NCO within their first enlistment that means that when you are a "non-rate", which is what you will be called and will be on your ID card in the rank box I can promise that one of the duties you will have is all of the floor waxing you can handle along with base police call, field day in the barracks which is pass/fail (if you fail no liberty), office field and so on and so forth. In boot camp you will stand fire watch at least three times a week and while watching for the boogie man you'll be cleaning...waxing the floor, scrubbing the head making sure other recruits aren't getting up and running around. During mess and maintainence you'll just do three times the cleanup that you normally do if you lucky and get the maintainance part of the deal. When have free time in boot camp your DI's aren't going to let you chat with other recruits you 'll be cleaning, and ironing, and learning your knowledge and cleaning some more and in between probably getting pitted or quarter decked. That's the truth about boot camp when your back in the rear at 4th battalion. You don't learn how to do any sort of MOS until you are at MOS school and you have a long wait from training day one until you pick up at school. Most of the WM's that I was in boot camp with are drill instructors now and believe me it has not changed that much in ten years...non rates are still the cleaning backbone of Marine Corps.

[Anonymous]

Not much of an update, but I had an 8am mtg w/ Col. out at Luke AFB and he's helping me get a package together for the OTS for the AF. I think that since I have some references from Luke and have people to assist me in getting my papers together that I might go into the AF...especially since I am 90% sure I can get the job I want as a 2Lt. I still dont know what I want to do. Thanks for all your help and I will keep working on a decision.

Jen

jenatasu@aol.com

[Anonymous]

Thanks for your comments--when my husband was in the Corps he picked up Corporal pretty quick so there wasn't an extraordinary amount of that for him...guess he musta gotten spoiled... :o)

Semper Fi! Monika


:
: Anderson, I would like to make a comment about what enlisted do. First of all
: about 80% of enlisted Marines do not make NCO within their first
: enlistment that means that when you are a "non-rate", which is
: what you will be called and will be on your ID card in the rank box I can
: promise that one of the duties you will have is all of the floor waxing
: you can handle along with base police call, field day in the barracks
: which is pass/fail (if you fail no liberty), office field and so on and so
: forth. In boot camp you will stand fire watch at least three times a week
: and while watching for the boogie man you'll be cleaning...waxing the
: floor, scrubbing the head making sure other recruits aren't getting up and
: running around. During mess and maintainence you'll just do three times
: the cleanup that you normally do if you lucky and get the maintainance
: part of the deal. When have free time in boot camp your DI's aren't going
: to let you chat with other recruits you 'll be cleaning, and ironing, and
: learning your knowledge and cleaning some more and in between probably
: getting pitted or quarter decked. That's the truth about boot camp when
: your back in the rear at 4th battalion. You don't learn how to do any sort
: of MOS until you are at MOS school and you have a long wait from training
: day one until you pick up at school. Most of the WM's that I was in boot
: camp with are drill instructors now and believe me it has not changed that
: much in ten years...non rates are still the cleaning backbone of Marine
: Corps.


zuma50@hotmail.com

[Anonymous]

It's a tough decision in any case Jen--remember like I said in my email to you, to do what's right for you! Good luck & keep me posted...I am sure you will succeed in whatever MOS you get...

Mon-mon


:
: Not much of an update, but I had an 8am mtg w/ Col. out at Luke AFB and he's
: helping me get a package together for the OTS for the AF. I think that
: since I have some references from Luke and have people to assist me in
: getting my papers together that I might go into the AF...especially since
: I am 90% sure I can get the job I want as a 2Lt. I still dont know what I
: want to do. Thanks for all your help and I will keep working on a
: decision.
:
: Jen


zuma50@hotmail.com

[Anonymous]

What I am saying Anderson is you seem to think you know a lot about what Marines do and how they train based on your husbands experience and your recruiters....I am trying to give a little bit of warning about your preconcived ideas about how "glamorous" the Marine Corps really is. You might consider listening since you are shipping soon. There were some girls that had similar ideas about life in the corps when I went to boot camp...not one graduated.

[Anonymous]

Jen,

I have some answers for you, but I'm having troubles getting e-mail to you. In a nutshell--WOC is essentially the abbreviation for "OCS for ladies." It's the OCS platoon for women. Regarding the ASVAB, if you have a degree and have taken the ACT or SAT (don't recall which) with a certain score you don't have to take the ASVAB (for OCS).

If you have more questions I'll be happy to try to answer them. I can also tell you why I made the decisions and choices I made, if that helps. E-mail me at katya_denisovna@hotmail.com or try posting here.

Good luck! k

katya_denisovna@hotmail.com

[Anonymous]

A.L.,

If you posted your email address for me to use I would be happy to discuss these issues with you in private, as it should be, since you seem to have some kind of problem with me. However, since you haven't, here is my public reply and I'll try to keep my lid on here.

Well, all I can say about that is yeah, my husband was a Marine, and so was my father, who spent a very long time in the Corps. The "old Corps', probably way before your time. So was my best friend actually, a Captain, so I also get the officer's version of the Corps. Oh, and my brother-in-law too...

So yeah, I do 'seem to think' I know a little bit about it. However, I am very very well aware that it's not as glamorous as you think I do. And I also know it's not as glamorous as many former WMs 'reminisce' it to be. Furthermore, I'm not sure where you got the opinion that I think it's 'glamorous?" Do we know each other? I don't recall every posting anything in public or private to anyone saying I think "life in the Corps is glamorous".

I really can't imagine how you think you know exactly what my "preconceived ideas" about the Marine Corps experience are since I have never gotten into that kind of depth here. The things you posted in your previous message about Privates waxing floors and all that, and MOS school? Sorry, I knew that already, and I've not 'glamorized it' in my mind.

As for my delusions about graduating from boot camp, if you knew me and what I have been through in my life, you would not doubt my tenacity and will to survive and succeed, and that's all I'll say about that.

Further, I am more, more than happy to listen and absorb to what anybody says about the Corps, especially former and active duty Marines. I feel that if more former WMs posted their version of "the real Corps" here, all of us we would be bit better off. Quite frankly I've been a little disappointed in the lack of that kind of participation here and so have many of my friends.

And finally, I must thank you for your thinly veiled threat regarding people "you think" were similar to me not graduating: I'm very wary about people who imply that I will fail. I have always proven them wrong. Life is what you make of it. Who knows, maybe I will not graduate, but honestly, I wouldn't hold your breath.

M. Anderson


:
: What I am saying Anderson is you seem to think you know a lot about what
: Marines do and how they train based on your husbands experience and your
: recruiters....I am trying to give a little bit of warning about your
: preconcived ideas about how "glamorous" the Marine Corps really
: is. You might consider listening since you are shipping soon. There were
: some girls that had similar ideas about life in the corps when I went to
: boot camp...not one graduated.


zuma50@hotmail.com

[Anonymous]

I believe the reason more WM's don't post here is because it has become a forum for women that are not yet Marines. There is a section in the begining of the site for people that want to talk about boot camp and what goes on there, why don't don't you use that area to display your wisdom to other woman that are thinking about joining, that's why that section was created. I have read your posts throughout each thread and you come off as a "know it all". If anyone challenges you respond with, "My husband was a Marine, he told me...." or "My aunt was a captain, ect..." So what, my dad was an officer, so was my brother and he was in recon..that doesn't make me a wizzard about OCS or Recon. I was a NCO and went through what you haven't embarked on yet. Open your ears Anderson and listen to people when they tell you things that sound painful. Your DI's won't reward you for being the wife or daughter of Marine nor do they like recruits that have all the answers, I am trying to tell you what your recruiter won't so stop getting defensive when you read something don't like.

[Anonymous]

Well, I must admit A.L., that I am stupid enough that I have not seen this "boot camp" section in the beginning. All I've ever really seen in this section are mostly questions from civilians wanting to be Marines so I guess we've all erred. So let's go girls! Apparently we're not wanted here.

In the future, I hope you will remember to post friendly reminders that boot camp questions and answers are not welcome here and should be posted elsewhere on the site.

And if you think I'm stupid enough A.L. to actually blab to my DIs that I am the wife of a Marine,etc., then like I said A.L., YOU DON'T KNOW ME. I am well aware the boot camp will be painful, as will some of my time in the Corps. But then again, I don't want to sound like a know-it-all. But I know I can deal with it and if that confidence irritates you, well, I'm not sorry about that.

So I will leave you to your infinite wisdom--what little of it you have posted here-- and gracefully retreat, and take my right to freedom of speech elsewhere.

M.A.

p.s. By the way, you have no idea what my recruiter tells me, in case you didn't know THAT already.


:
: I believe the reason more WM's don't post here is because it has become a
: forum for women that are not yet Marines. There is a section in the
: begining of the site for people that want to talk about boot camp and what
: goes on there, why don't don't you use that area to display your wisdom to
: other woman that are thinking about joining, that's why that section was
: created. I have read your posts throughout each thread and you come off as
: a "know it all". If anyone challenges you respond with, "My
: husband was a Marine, he told me...." or "My aunt was a captain,
: ect..." So what, my dad was an officer, so was my brother and he was
: in recon..that doesn't make me a wizzard about OCS or Recon. I was a NCO
: and went through what you haven't embarked on yet. Open your ears Anderson
: and listen to people when they tell you things that sound painful. Your
: DI's won't reward you for being the wife or daughter of Marine nor do they
: like recruits that have all the answers, I am trying to tell you what your
: recruiter won't so stop getting defensive when you read something don't
: like.


zuma50@hotmail.com

[Anonymous]

Anderson - I don't have an attitude, I corrected you on an error about the Corps that you made. When I did, it pissed it you off..oh well. You have turned a correction into something that is much bigger and that's not my problem. So..you can go be cheesy someplace else.

[Anonymous]

Oh, by the way I never called you stupid.

[Anonymous]

: about 80% of enlisted Marines do not make NCO within their first
: enlistment


I must have been one of the lucky ones than because I made it to Sgt. in my first enlistment. It took 9 months for PFC, 5-6 months to LCPL(that was a Meritorious Promotion), I forget how long to CPL and I decided to re-enlist early and got SGT upon re-enlistment all under 3-4 years. After that I was asked twice to go to Officers School and become an officer but refused because I felt that the Corps was with the enlisted rank especially as a SGT on up. I unfortunately wasn't able to stay in and retire because of a disability so ended up receiving a disability honorable discharge. I am a Vietnam Disabled Veteran. The Corps sure must have changed alot since I was in if 80% don't get higher in rank than a LCPL the first tour around. Are you referring to a tour as 2,3, or 4 years? If it's 2 years than I can understand that ratio but if it's longer there is something very wrong if one doesn't make at least SGT. within the first 3-4 years in.



frenchiestm@clds.net

[Anonymous]

what anybody says


: about the Corps, especially former and active duty Marines. I feel that if
: more former WMs posted their version of "the real Corps" here,
: all of us we would be bit better off. Quite frankly I've been a little
: disappointed in the lack of that kind of participation here and so have
: many of my friends.


When I was in during the Vietnam Era the corps was hard and tough but it also was the best time of my life. The Corps can be glamous, it's just what one's attitude is about it all. We worked hard but with it came it's rewards of promtions, furloughs and such. For me it was a time of dedication, committment to being a part in doing what was best for our country. Most of my time in, 8 1/2 years for the most part was quite enjoyable and fun.

Boot camp we did alot of the medial jobs like scrubbing hardwood floors, standing fire watch and such but that was to teach us to work as a team, to teach us to discipline ourselves, build character, etc. so we would know how to handle life as Marines and be dedicated to our country and each other in doing the task at hand during a time fo war. After boot camp we who lived in the barracks did have chores just as you would if you were at home such as keeping your area clean, bathroom and such and everyone pitched in from Pvts to Sgts and if you were an officer and lived in the officers billets the same routine went on there with them, no one was exempt from such duties. Everyone of all ranks stood firewatch, staff duty and such in the barracks up to Captains.

Many tha were LCPL AND CPL stood the staff duty if there were not enough SGTs or Staff-Sgts to do it. I myself stood Staff Duty as a LCPL, CPL AND SGT. As a SGT I sometimes stood in place of the Duty Officer Of the Day even though I wasn't an officer. I did that at Camp Pendleton a few times.

For the most part you got up at 4:30, made your bed, took your shower, went to the mess hall by 5:30 and was at work by 6:30 and worked many days until 4:30-6 in the evening. But that was during the war and things are much more stressful during those times than others (as in non-combatant times).

But we also had our evening to ourselves and weekends if we didn't have duty at the barracks. We were not as integrated than as it is now. I was one of the fortunate ones in the 60's and 70's who ended up working with mostly men because my duty stations were at Headquarters Marine Corps in D.C. , Camp Pendleton, and Futema Air Station in Okinawa. Though we had about a dozen females in Okinawa I was one of the NCO's in charge of the barracks as well as the men who worked for me.

To me the Corps was one of the most glamourous times of my life. Though I worked hard I also partied hard (and I don't mean going out and getting stone drunk - I didn't drink than and still don't) but I had a wonderful time and opportunities I never would have gotten anywhere else.

Let's put it this way the Corps certainly isn't for whimps and wussies but it is the best the military can offer as far as pride and discipline is concerned. Hence the term Semper Fi (Always Faithful). Marines are brothers and sisters in arms who stick together thru thick and thin, and who also have alot of fun together. And I hear it's still pretty much the same today though they may have it somewhat easier than we did back than but that is expected.

The thing to remember is to put in perspective when a Marine is to be serious and go about the days business and when to put that aside and get a little R&R.

In boot camp I made my own fun.... :-) And yes I also worked my tail off to try and be the best I could be and I and all others that graduated continued it after bootcamp.

The Marines for that matter the military or even civilian life is what you make of it. One can learn to be tough and strong and disciplined and at the same time be gentle as a kitten and in doing so get the job done and also have fun at it.

I use to have a MSGT that would simply get irritated with me at Headquarters Marine Corps in D.C. because every morning he's pass me in the hallway at work and I'd be whistling a tune while going to my office (this would be around 6 in the morning) so after about 6 months of seeing me do this he simply snapped one day and at me at the bulkhead and let me know he was irritated with me because in his puny little mind he felt that no one can be that happy all the time. But the thing was that I really was happy and having fun doing something I loved.

One things for sure you're either gonna love the Corps or hate it and there is no in between. If you join and don't like it than make the best of it, finish your tour and get out and if you enjoy it as much as I did than stay in and be happy for it.

The military let alone the Corps certainly isn't for everyone so if you're thinking of joining any branch of the service check out everything before making that committment.



frenchiestm@clds.net

[Anonymous]

Griefness, I didnt think it would incite such fury. LOL Anyways.. I still look at the Corps for the challenge and mental exercise, but if I know that I could be 2Lt in the AF I might just go w/ it. My military experience is what I make of it. Like I told Mon. I want to be able to get my masters, volunteer, and do comm. service while Im in too. I think that is a far more viable option, for me, while I am serving w/ the AF. But I will not forget about the USMC. I am trying to come up w/ my version of Semper Fi for the AF.. LOL any thoughts? and I dont want the usual jargon y'all like to drag around on the floor either..LOL (i.e chair force, etc.) LOL

jen

jenatasu@aol.com

[Anonymous]

Thank you for your service. Outstanding on the meritorious promotion!

I've also heard that very few troops make it to NCO in the first hitch. The ratios which are maintained now are something like 50% of all enlisted Marines are E-3 and below. It seems like every time we get a new SECDEF we get a new spin on how many should be in which rank in which service.

katya_denisovna@hotmail.com

[Anonymous]

Any service should provide you the opportunity for your MA or MS and give you the time to volunteer. The ties between a base and the community are extremely important--to the city, it helps keep the base from getting closed and to the base, it makes life so much easier when the city likes you. During Christmas you may have seen Marine reservists at the grocery store or mall running the Toys for Tots program, and I have AF friends who get time out of their duty week to work with Meals for the Elderly. Point being, each service will give you these things.

My advice (like you asked!! LOL) is to start deciding what exactly is it you want from your military experience. Each branch has different appeal--and if you want incredible pride, then look at the Corps. If you want a more corporate experience, look at tht AF. Also, what are your majors? Different majors are more helpful to each service, though each service will give you exhaustive training in your job.

Again, feel free to e-mail me. There's no point in you starting from scratch when there are so many of us who've made the same decisions.

Finally, though this is more appropriate for the AF page, you can choose between "Go Air Force," "Fly, Fight, and Win," and "Good luck, Goodspeed, ands Go Air Force." None quite have the ring of "Semper Fi!" Nor the history....

k

katya_denisovna@hotmail.com

[Anonymous]

Carol, you are awesome!

[Anonymous]

Well said Carol. I too made Sgt in under four years. But, I too was in during the Viet Nam era. Whether that has something to do with it our not, I don't know. I felt it an honor when asked (told) to be DOD. There were very few female marines on Naval Air Stations, which is where I was during my entire time in the Corps. I however, cannot use the word "glamorous" to describe any time I had in the Marines. Fun, is a good word. Hard work for not a heck of a lot of pay is a good way to describe it. I would never recommend it to anyone who wants to earn a million before they retire. [this is a different can of worms, altogether] And I have stated before and will say it again, my best friends today are the friends I made during boot camp and would trade them for all the tea in China!

In response to A.L.'s remark about why former marines don't post here very much, if you look back at previous threads, you'll find that we have been told (and I won't name names but you can dig into some of the threads to see where they came from) 'boot camp and marine life has changed and some say our opinions really don't count'. We do however, lurk here quite often, or keep up with the automatic posts, and some pass the comments along to those of us who don't get online daily but we tend to take our comments offline, or to other bbs. That way we are not open to insults nor do we insult others.

In defense of Ms. Anderson, who CAN come across as a "ms-know-it-all", we are pretty much 70/30 as to whether she will do well (30% think her attitude will get her into trouble) I think, though she can be brassy, it will serve her quite well. There is even one DI amongst us who hopes will run into her in Parris Island...

On a different note. The girls who are in boot camp now, can use a prayer of encouragement. I was bootcamp over the holidays and Christmas was the hardest part of the whole 10 weeks. For most of the ladies there it is their first time away from home for any significant time and thinking about home is on their minds a lot, no matter how busy they are with "other things". I still said a Christmas card to the WM platoons annually. I remember a former recruit sending a card to Platton 11-A (1971) and it meant the world to me, personally. So, I do it hoping at least one person will get the glad tidings also.

Merry Christams, ladies -- and peace on earth. june

[Anonymous]

Sorry for the typos! I still "send" Christmas cards to the current holiday recuits. And any other typos... I have a 3-year-old patient on my lap, "helping" me...

[Anonymous]

Excellent post Carol, I love your attitude!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you.

-Natalie

nataliet@ccess.net