Marine Rank

[Anonymous]

I am for one happy that the Marines see fit not to promote to NCO the first tour. I am an Army NCO and one of the biggest mistakes the Army ever made was called the "Stripes for Skills" program. Under this program rank is awarded by the amount of civilian experience you have. This is very big in the Medical MOS's were a lot learn their skills in the civilian world. However these folks have very little military knowledge and are promoted to Sergeant right after AIT in most instances. In short how would you like to be a member of a squad where your very Sgt the one who is supposed to look out for you as a troop cannot even take their weapon apart correctly, does not know the Army rank structure enough to know to salute a Colonel, cannot read a compass, a map, talk on a radio, basic fighting tactics etc, but the Army sees fit to make them a Sergeant and lead troops simply because they have medical knowledge necessary for their MOS. Nope I had rather have it the Marine way anyday where Stripes are earned through hard work, experience, and time within the Corps over the Army's "we need NCO'es and you off the street are chosen to be one" anyday of the week but especially in combat.

PSlpritchett@aol.com

[Anonymous]

Well said, Ronald...I couldn't agree more having seen Stripes for Skills work on the Intel side of the house.

nmdreamcatcher@hotmail.com

[Anonymous]

: I am for one happy that the Marines see fit not to promote to NCO the first
: tour.


Why shouldn't they!!! If that Marine has worked his butt off as I did when in and so did others we deserved to get promoted. I don't think one can compare the way the Army promotes and the way the Corps does in any way shape or form. A certain percentage of Marines make it to NCO (even today from what I've read) and they certainly EARNED EVERY RIGHT to the rank unlike what the Army does based on experience in a particular MOS in civilian life.

ON ANOTHER NOTE, lets turn the cards around, how about military folk getting out and going back into the civilian community and getting preference over civilians for jobs based on their training and experience. I got 'special treatment' when I got out of the Corps because of my military experience and because I was a disabled vet. In my case I actually was qualified for any position I got but I know of some that were not qualified to do the job and got it over another civilian just because they had been in the military.

So with the Army doing the same thing by bringing in civilians and giving them rank because of a 'specialized' field is not different than military getting out and getting the same treatment and taking a civilians place who probably deserves it more.

Now I realize what is being said here that the civilian doesn't know much about the military as far as weapons and rank structure but since we're talking about the medical field here do they really need to! Now if we were at war they'd be used to help save lives and I doubt they'd be in charge of a combat unit, but if they were in a combat zone, and the medical area was about to be taken or overrun by the enemy and that person had higher rank (and if I were that person) I'd quickly give charge to the person with the combat training to lead the others and I'd stay in my tent and tend to the wounded. I'd be smart enough to know I don't know squat and I'd be willing to let someone junior to me do the work and ordering around.

Which reminds me of a young Marine Lt. who was sent to my squadron in Okinawa and I was his Sgt back in 72. He was green, new at all of this and was smart enough to know to let me do or train him to know what was what. He had just gotten out of OCS and shipped there on his first assignment. The key was for me to make him think he came up with an idea and give him credit for it. And it made him look good. I'd write up the orders and he's sign them. I was sorta like CPL RILEY on MASH. Remember Riley would get the Colonel to just sign things without ever reading them or making him think he was signing something else. Made my life and the other Marines easier. We were in the middle of a war and were background support for the troops in Vietnam which was only a few hours away from us by air.

We had a saying back than about SGT's, (our shoulders were broad and we could carry any load-meaning we weren't afraid to be responsible for our actions and decisions made in order to get the job done). Back than the pride of the Marine Corps and I hope it still is the same today was the Sergeant.

Some of us took the iniative to get things done when we saw it needed to be done and I guess that is why I received a couple of meritorious promotions within the first 4 years I was in. We were at war and business needed tending and it was nothing for some of us to work 14-16 hours a day back than and we did it voluntary it wasn't forced upon us.

I know for a fact if a Marine makes NCO status the first tour they have deserved it and earned it. Now perhaps other branches just give out rank but the Corps sure doesn't or at least didn't when I was in.

frenchiestm@clds.net

[Anonymous]

SO am I to understand that those like myself, w/ college degrees, arent worth the smudge your black boots make on the sidewalk? That we shouldnt be put through OTS and, if graduated, made Lt's? I wonder that myself. What makes my 7 years of college and 2 degrees proof of my leadership qualities/abilities? I dont know much either. Is it the drive that I had to keep going to school while helping to raise my nephew, work fulltime, and do some volunteer work on the side? The personal satisfaction that I could follow through on an ever changing plan to make myself educated? The willingness to sacrifice time, energy, money, personal materials to afford schooling? These qualities are learned, just like those in OTS. The drive to see a squadron begin, continue and finish a task/mission. The personal satisfaction that they trusted me to help them lead their mission to completion. The willingness to scarifice my time, energy, and person to supervise and help them, and myself to learn and succeed.

I am trying to convince myself day to day that I can do this. At first it will be challenging, just like any job. Proof is in the pudding people. You do a good job, admit mistakes/or unsuredness to the extent that those will still have confidence in your abilities, but realize that you are not God.

I understand ronalds concern that there are those in the MOS's placed and promoted thusly due to their civilian experience/ or education. They should likewise be just as learned/experienced in the combat skills that those around them know. That is not an excusable option. If we are going to serve, we are soldiers first, people w/ personalities second.

im sure ronald will have some happy thoughts for me.

by the way pritchett, youre right i didnt get the waiver, but i can get it as an officer. thanks for your help! :)

jenatasu@aol.com

[Anonymous]

: SO am I to understand that those like myself, w/ college degrees, arent worth
: the smudge your black boots make on the sidewalk? That we shouldnt be put
: through OTS and, if graduated, made Lt's?


Don't know why this was directed at me but I wasn't the one stating folks should not make rank. I believe I stated that folks that have earned the right by hard work and such should be given rank and it doesn't matter weather they be enlisted or officers. I think we were talking about few now making NCO within the first tour of 4 years unlike what happened during Nam. I don't recall officer rank being brought into it unless I missed some of the messages.

frenchiestm@clds.net

[Anonymous]

Alright, I don't believe it was said that anything was completely wrong with a person making it to the NCO ranks within the first tour, only that sometimes it's not right to promote so early on because of a specific skill. IF a soldier in the Army enters the Stripes for Skills program AND they display the drive to become the best soldier they can be and gain the knowledge, then there is nothing wrong with being promoted so early. However, this is most often not the case. I went to PLDC with a Stripes for Skills soldier, an oboe player in the band. She had been in the Army for about 18 months and didn't even know what ETS meant. That to me was a red flag...that she was being given stripes and a leadership position that she was not ready to fill. She made a lot of headway in that short school though and realized that she had some big shoes to fill.

No one ever said that a college degree or having a skill was unimportant in the military, quite the contrary, just that it should not be the only driving factor behind promotions. Bottom line, we know that in the Corps, promotions are based off of hard work and drive and determination and think that it should be that way in the other services as well.

nmdreamcatcher@hotmail.com

[Anonymous]

I would like to apologize.. and a few more things Ive learned..

1.A closed mouth gathers no foot.

2. Never miss a good chance to shut up.

3. Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

4. No one is listening until you make a mistake.

5. Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield.

I misunderstood the objective of the posting. I will return to my hole..

Jen

jenatasu@aol.com

[Anonymous]

A day you haven't learned something is a day wasted :)

No offense taken, none meant. It's all good...and I really like your list of things learned...might have to write those down for some people I know at work - especially #3. Thanks!

nmdreamcatcher@hotmail.com

[Anonymous]

Very interesting points here! Jen, I understand your point about sacrifice and persistence needed to get through school, with all due respect it is valid...sometimes what's needed is ungodly persistence, esp thru the red tape!;) However, there is a discrepancy between the real world and school even if only in the corporate measurement! Or in the character development measurement. School has and is giving me an edge and developing my mind, (or should i say I am developing my mind despite school) but I work with and for college grads who haven't the slightest clue about leadership or staying in touch with those grades under your own. Yet they are more 'educated'. The day to day wing-it strategies within the structure of any organized effort are not mastered strictly from the theories learned in classroom, & though it sure never hurt to know more, neither is strength of character... which is required especially to lead troops. What I'm saying here is that going in as an officer, which i aslo plan to do... should not ride so much (after meeting entrance requirements) on college anything. If you are to lead in the military probably a great percentage of that leadership ability will be gained in grueling training, on the job, by developing what is needed within you (which no measure of formal education can offer), and most importantly by observing and listening to your NCO's who know (all!;) what they know from experience that started at rung one on the ladder. College is a nice way to learn, a nice set of credits to collect, hard won gains no less... but ask any vet without a degree what it takes to get things done under duress and even the college educated can learn something. Unfortunately I suspect in this (military) field, that much more so even than in the civilian world, college is merely a ticket which opens doors...sure you learn great things...however it does not make, in general, anyone a better leader just because they have this or that degree. School doesn't necessarily teach you to think, to utilize teamwork or communication skills, to stand up for what is right which may one day save the lives of those under you. Making a grade in college means more or less you did what the teacher said to do at the allotted time. I have done this, we can all do this, some just don't see it as important as others and this is their prerogative. College has it's place...I am not denouncing college education at all...especially in the technical fields, it is an absolute necessity. I have seeked out education for the positives and opportunities brought forth by it, but it is the experience...starting at rock bottom...whether enlisted or officer...that i feel really makes one a better Marine/Airman/Soldier, etc. And in building the foundation of inner resoureces required to make difficult decisions, I will have to say college has not much of a hand in that matter because every single person has everyday challenges to contend with which require surmounting and overcoming...college is but one of them.

I like your point Ron, and feel it is more dangerous to put a civilian educated person in a role of Sgt that civilian is not ready to master, especially out in the field, than it would be to put one of a military background into the civilian world. No one is really going to die because Jack with a Marine background got a favorable spot at a certain civilian job. Those with military backgrounds tend to do as they are told and are favored for the reason that there is much less nonsense to be expected, for the most part, from an employee with military experience. I believe the Corps is that much different from today's Army in that regard, in that every position within the Marines is earned with sweat and tears, etc., as said above, whereas I am disappointed to see such a program the Army has introduced take effect.

I agree that the medical field is one area where the skills needed are crucial to saving lives, and therefore perhaps combat skills might not be as important as in a unit in closer association with combat. However, in the fog of war things don't go as planned and first and formost every soldier should know their weapon inside out. This is yet another ultimately successful aspect of the Marine Corps...the absolute stress on knowing your weapon.

Damn it's late. I'm outta here.

-Nat



nataliet@ccess.net

[Anonymous]

I have seeked out education

---------------------------------

LOL...I have sought out education;) English/management major here;)

nataliet@ccess.net

[Anonymous]

Now that i've caught up on all the postings I must say that humility is strength! That was so cute Jen...I also have to copy 'things I've learned', pretty awesome;)

Nat

nataliet@ccess.net

[Anonymous]

I believe what this site was initially stating was that Marines and Soldiers should not make NCO in their 1st term. But don't you find it motivating when that 3yr Sgt, who went to college before enlisting, is pinned. You know that to make Cpl in under two years is damn good, that takes a lot of Meritorious boards and leadership that his/her leaders saw in him/her to begin with. We all know that if you are not "moto" then you will probaly leave My Marine Corps as a LCpl or maybe if you are lucky Cpl. But please don't degrade the Marines, however junior you may believe them to be, who have busted their butts to pin on Cpl or Sgt in their 1st term. Because those are the Marines I want in my corner. The ones who want the rank, who love My Corps enough to give it all they have and then some.

OORAH! Toie



freak5811@hotmail.com