Women in Combat

[Anonymous]

In reading the below messages flashes of my experiences in the Army, coupled with the rage I felt then, came flooding back. I am by no means a true-to-heart feminist but I am a person that believes that if we, as a society, truly want equal rights for women we cannot qualify it. If we as women want to be treated as equals it has to be across the board.

My main argument for this subject is that there are plenty of "men" out there that do not have the physical strength that some women do. Will a 5'4" 125 lb man be more capable of carrying a 50 caliber machine gun that a 5'10" 165 lb women? Who knows? Only they do. A woman should not be excluded from combat, or anything else for that matter, just because of her gender. Too many assumptions are made about women because biologically we are different from men. Let's get out of the Victorian Era and realize that women are just as capable of getting the job done as men are.

Not to mention that this subject not only restricts women from performing a job many would enjoy but they are also not given the same equity when it comes to money for college. When I recruited for the Army Reserves, women were excluded from the combat positions that would allow them to receive 20K+ from the Army College Fund. That has to be the worse injustice of them all. Is our education that much less important that we cannot receive the same amount of funds as men - most males are not men when they join, they are just boys.

What right do the politicians have to determine what women can and cannot do? Let's grow up guys and realize that women just want to be treated equally - we promise, when we come in to power, we won't take away many of your rights just because you are men/boys.

Bottom line is, women should at least be afforded the opportunity, just like males, to chose a job that would put them in to combat - that doesn't mean they will go. Open the doors and let us prove ourselves. However, we may just knock the door down!!

If anyone would like to have a more in-depth exchange on this subject, please post your message to this area with your email address.



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[Anonymous]

: In reading the below messages flashes of my experiences in the Army, coupled with the rage I felt then, came flooding back. I am by no means a true-to-heart feminist but I am a person that believes that if we, as a society, truly want equal rights for women we cannot qualify it. If we as women want to be treated as equals it has to be across the board.
In reading your reasoning, I find it sort of distressing that it had to get down to the money (20K+) for college and the name calling (men/boys) and the implication that men fear that women will come into power! (In my experience, women have been in charge for years (1000's of them - years not women). I also caught your comment that women should be given combat positions but that mean they would have to go! That sounds sorta unequal, equal doesn't it! In other words let's take the money and run! As for 165 pound women being able to outperform 125 men, you don't really believe that do you! If so, let's load up with a 50 backpack and about40 more pounds of guns/ammo and let's see how that works. Let's let equal mean
: My main argument for this subject is that there are plenty of "men" out there that do not have the physical strength that some women do. Will a 5'4" 125 lb man be more capable of carrying a 50 caliber machine gun that a 5'10" 165 lb women? Who knows? Only they do. A woman should not be excluded from combat, or anything else for that matter, just because of her gender. Too many assumptions are made about women because biologically we are different from men. Let's get out of the Victorian Era and realize that women are just as capable of getting the job done as men are.

: Not to mention that this subject not only restricts women from performing a job many would enjoy but they are also not given the same equity when it comes to money for college. When I recruited for the Army Reserves, women were excluded from the combat positions that would allow them to receive 20K+ from the Army College Fund. That has to be the worse injustice of them all. Is our education that much less important that we cannot receive the same amount of funds as men - most males are not men when they join, they are just boys.

: What right do the politicians have to determine what women can and cannot do? Let's grow up guys and realize that women just want to be treated equally - we promise, when we come in to power, we won't take away many of your rights just because you are men/boys.

: Bottom line is, women should at least be afforded the opportunity, just like males, to chose a job that would put them in to combat - that doesn't mean they will go. Open the doors and let us prove ourselves. However, we may just knock the door down!!

: If anyone would like to have a more in-depth exchange on this subject, please post your message to this area with your email address.






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rgreen@isgroup.net

[Anonymous]

: In reading your reasoning, I find it sort of distressing that it had to get down to the money (20K+) for college and the name calling (men/boys) and the implication that men fear that women will come into power! (In my experience, women have been in charge for years (1000's of them - years not women). I also caught your comment that women should be given combat positions but that mean they would have to go! That sounds sorta unequal, equal doesn't it! In other words let's take the money and run! As for 165 pound women being able to outperform 125 men, you don't really believe that do you! If so, let's load up with a 50 backpack and about40 more pounds of guns/ammo and let's see how that works. Let's let equal mean

You obviously missed my point. Money is only one of the factors that contributes to the inequality of women in this country. For instance, women get paid $.60 for every $1.00 a man gets paid. Do you feel that is equal if they are doing the same exact job?

As for the 165 lb women being able to out-perform a 125 lb male, yes, I do believe it! I did it and I weight much less than 165 lbs.

My point of the message was to get across that women should be afforded the same opportunities as men. And just like with men, that doesn't mean we will take advantage of those opportunities but at least we will have them.

GOT IT?





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[Anonymous]

Dear K

I refer you to my message which you will find in the most recent section of the opinion column. As a hint I would say that you should all stop being so childish and get on with life rather than indulging in a web based soap box session because no one really cares. You are measured by the person you are, which I am sure is of a high standard of both ability and intelligence, and not your bodily apparatus.

RDT

s3035526@student.anu.edu.au

[Anonymous]

I was admonished by Paula for not reading all of the previous posts on this subject, so I decided to take a look back. This particular argument is one of the worst reasoned on this site. Women do not make .60 to every $1.00 made by men. That is total nonsense, and is an example of using statistics to prove any point you want to make. It is illegal to pay people of different genders less for the same work, so it doesn't happen. This particular statistic is thrown around all the time. It kind of bugged me in graduate school, so I looked it up. The actual statistic was arrived at by taking the number of women in the workforce and dividing that number into the total money they earn, and then taking the number of men in the workforce and dividing that number into the total amount of money that they earn. Of course men earn more money, under this set of parameters. Men, who have been in the corporate workforce longer, earn higher salaries. Men in professional sports earn more than women in professional sports. Why? Because TV pays more to professional football than to women's gymnastics or professional ice-skating. Police, government workers, lawyers, firefighters, military personnel, and every other profession requires that every job provide equal pay for equal work. In order for this statistic to mean anything it would require the analyst to look at individual jobs. It would be necessary to show where men and women doing the same work, with the same time on the job, and the same qualifications earn different amounts. Women only earn .60 to every $1.00 earned by men, when the men are working at a higher level, with more responsibility, higher standards, and more requirements. I earned more than every Major and Captain in the Army, before I retired. Why? Because I outranked them. Women who outranked me, earned more money than I did. Why? For the same reason.

baileyw1@leavenworth.army.mil

[Anonymous]

: I was admonished by Paula for not reading all of the previous posts on this
: subject, so I decided to take a look back.


Please point out when I admonished you for not reading all of the previous posts on this subject. My argument with you has been you first assessment that women in combat is the focal point of this website. Have you even been to the Home Page? Do not put words in my mouth or accuse me of things I haven't done.

webasst1@militarywoman.org

[Anonymous]

“Please point out when I admonished you for not reading all of the previous posts on this subject.”

You wrote in a previous post, “You are entitled to your opinion, but do not be so egotistical to think you are the only &quot;expert&quot; that has visited this site or this thread to express either pro or con on this subject. Over the years men and women have responded to this thread and the static section on the Home Page that have come from every walk of life and all opinions, whether they are military, have served in combat, have served in combat positions, served in forces of other countries, cadets, parents of military members, and even civilians have offered their opinions. Some are based on feelings, some are based on facts, and some are based out of just plain desire. Their outlook on the issue is just as valid as any opinion that you have to offer.”

The above was the admonishment I was referring to, in which you recognize I have the right to an opinion, but that others have voiced opinions as “valid” and credible as mine. Unfortunately, you don’t reference specifically who they are, or where those opinions might be found on this thread. The implication is clear that I should read the previous posts located here in order to find these “valid” comments. After all, how would I know if they are &quot;as valid&quot; without reading every post on this topic?

Also, I have not declared myself an “expert” on this, or any other subject. I have said that I have a very well informed opinion, and have attempted to demonstrate my experience and knowledge on this subject by stating my bonafides. Another writer intoned, “You seem to discard Paula's opinion outright because she is out-trumped in this ongoing game of resume bridge”

I haven’t discarded your opinion, because as yet you haven’t stated your opinion, nor have you tried to dispute my opinion or the facts I have presented. I have stated that all opinions are not equally valid, and I stand by that statement. After careful consideration, I do discard opinions that are based on emotion, and not based on facts. I do discard opinions that attempt to obfuscate the issues through fallacious reasoning. As you point out, everyone has a right to an opinion, and in a democracy they all have an equal right to be heard, but I must emphasize that doesn’t mean they have an equally valid argument.

My comments on this board have been specifically to the issue of the exclusion of women in modern ground combat positions. I have provided numerous facts and studies in support of my contention that women are physically unqualified for modern ground combat. It is this very subject which you refuse to discuss, “I will not get into the argument with you about women in combat as to what are and what are not my views and what my experience is as they are well known on this site and have been for a few years.’

Since you refuse to post your opinion, or even refute my opinion with opposing facts and studies, I am forced to read all of your posts just to determine your position. When somone tells me that their opinion is a matter of public record, they are telling me to look it up.

You have written on several occasions that, “I said everyone's opinion is allowed their voice on this thread, no matter what their background. That no one opinion is better than the other.”

The idea that all opinions are equal in merit is laughable, but in order to give the others writing here the benefit of the doubt it is necessary for me to read all the posts that are archived on this topic. I hope this clears up this issue for you.



baileyw1@leavenworth.army.mil