Attn: females who want in on combat

[Anonymous]

Hey, you want to be emotional, you go ahead and be emotional. Stop speaking for everyone, they can speak for themselves. Go cry in a corner somewhere else because you're right, there's probably no place for you in combat. Break a nail on your own time and stop stereotyping and generalizing women. Stop telling other people what they are when you don't know them. The only person you can speak for is you. So go back in your post and replace every "women" with the word "I" to make your post valid.

gosh it seems like the definition of "women" is "oh my god I broke a nail" while sitting on the front lines. Guess I made another miscalculation, seems like most people here are very far to the right. As far as I'm concerned, if out of fifty females there are only two who can do the job, then those two do the job, its as simple as that.

I knew you guys would attack my age, I threw it out there so that you can get it over with. Yeah I heard about the girl who was awarded the silver star for killing 3 guys who attacked her supply convoy. Why are you taking what I'm saying and applying it other people? I told you I speak for myself. I think they can speak for themselves too. Have I ever said anything like "I think all females are a disgrace to the military and shouldn't be serving because they're too pathetic to give it their all?" No, those are your words.

You guys are twisting my words and making it seem like I'm dissing the military. Like I said, you can call me egocentric, but i'm not going to piss other people off by speaking for them, so I'm speaking for myself. They can also speak for themselves. I understand it might be a different approach to "organized debate," get over it.

Are you implying that I would not give 100% if I were to serve? See here's where you confuse me, you first say that women are pathetic physical inferiors and then tell me to show them some respect? Trust me, you're not the only one laughing. No doubt I would serve selflessly, but I'm not about to sit behind a desk and serve selflessly. Is it a crime to want to be in the hardest, most mobilized, most highly trained, most renoun, and most dangerous MOS in the military? Infantry/Armor/Special Forces is that, and I want to be that. I want something a little more elite than combat support, and I know alot of other people do to. If the military sets up recruiting offices outside of highschools to rope-in the drop outs to join these occupations, then I'm sure they'd have no problem accepting someone like me who did graduate with honors, was involved in athletics, and whose sole interest is not particularly money for college.

The funny thing is that if I said my sole interest was money for college, none of you would flame me. I didn't come here to be flamed. If the majority of people on this board are FOR women in direct combat, then why am I being flamed? It seems like anyone who doesn't go along with the status quo is flamed. In that case I can see why no one would publicly post support. If anyone does agree with me, they can email me, or send me hate mail. Here's my email.

dxdmma06@yahoo.com

Like I said, I'm not here to argue, I'm here to act.

[Anonymous]

P.S. webadmin, you say...

"Although LTC Bailey and myself stand on opposite sides of this issue and agreed a long time ago to disagree, he has made a poignant point here. Your refusing to serve simply because you cannot be in the infantry is a slap in the face to the women who do serve. The advancements that have been made in the military for women have not come for societal pressure, but from proven performance of the women who have come before. The military has never and will never make changes based on pressure from the outside and when change does come it comes slowly. Where women in today's military are is a direct result of the actions of the women who came before, not because someone outside the military said this needs to be done. The changing of from the risk rule to the direct ground combat rule happened because of the proven performance of women since Viet Nam."

How can women prove they are capable if no one lets them try? So if the number of females who maxed the male PT test went up, the military would let them in? If 90% of women in the military can't, but 3% can, and the others just wouldn't, then why not make an exception for those 3%? Its not fair to just hold everyone back to keep the other 90% who can't from messing up. I don't see how fraternization and emotions are bigger issues than PT scores seeing as there are women captains and units headed by women.

[LTC William E. Bailey]

I apologize to the readers, but this post cries out for lengthy analysis.

MMA: You state, "I knew you guys would attack my age..." The only remark made concerning your age was when I suggested that young people have a tendency towards egocentrism. If you think this is an attack, you haven't lived. The egocentrism of the young is well documented in every sociological textbook. If you think you aren't egocentric here are some of the statements you have written that would provide proof of the opposite:

"who in their right mind thinks they can tell me how qualified I am..."

Answer: The US Army makes this determination every day of the week.

"I'm 5'11'', 160lbs, and bench 180lbs, and just to show off, I can do 160 pushups on one arm."

Answer: At 71 inches/160lbs you are 3 lbs from being overweight, and nobody cares how many one armed pushups you can do.

"I'm not here to discuss whether or not females should be alloud to fight for their country, honestly, I really don't care what those who oppose it have to say."

Answer: You misspelled allowed. Then you posted on a website devoted to discussing this issue, but you don't care what anybody that disagrees with you has to say. This is not only arrogant but facist. You don't get to decide what people will write on this website.

"no one ever did a study on me..."

Answer: The US military cannot possibly study every single individual. Therefore, studies are conducted using a cross-section of the population under consideration and the results of those studies help to set standards for everyone. This is the way of the world, get used to it.

"Lets not let anyone who doesn't pass the minimun MALE infantry standards fight at all, male or female. They're not strong enough."

Answer: This is the way it is right now. Men who can't measure up are denied the MOS. Since 99% of women can't measure up, it's been decided by Congress, and every Administration that has considered the issue to prevent women as a group from entering a few Combat Arms MOSs.

"Recruits with prosthetic limbs can try out for Rangers but females can't."

Answer: This is a lie. There are no Ranger students with prosthetic legs, not yet. The article you linked to said as much, if you'd bothered to read it. This is called setting up a straw man. You make a claim that is an incredibly weak argument and then refute it.

"I'm sure all of the arguments I would make have already been made on this board, and that all of the arguments you've made have already been shot down."

Answer: The statement assumes things not in evidence. Unless you've done a search of this website you don't know what has been proposed pro or con, and have no idea what has or hasn't been proven or shot down. You haven't been able to answer any of my numerous con points, but apparently you don't feel you need to.

"Half the people on this board are opposed to women in combat."

Answer: Clearly you haven't bothered to do any kind of search on here or you wouldn't make this ridiculous claim.

"As for the "fraternization" argument, save it, everyone knows that when someone's shooting at you, the last thing you're probably thinking about is sex."

Answer: Everyone knows is another fallacious argument. You have no way of knowing what everyone knows, but even if you did it wouldn't mean that they are correct. In this case the exact opposite is true and has been written about in novels and case histories since WWI.

"I don't care if not a single female would sign up for infantry. I would! I'm not afraid to say bluntly that that's all I care about."

Answer: The US military has to be concerned with a great deal more than your personal desires. But this is another excellent example of your egocentrism...what else would you call this statement..?

"Look, its not fair."

Answer: True, but irrelevant.

"I came onto this message board with my hands up ready to beat anyone sensless who told me "no" one more time."

Answer: You came ready for a fight, but spent the next few posts whining about being flamed.

"I'd basically get a rifle and be told to stand there and look pretty with it while everyone else earns their right to be called marines."

Answer: This is the statement for which you owe the women on here an apology. You won't join the military because women aren't required to do anything but stand around and look pretty. This remark is not only stupid but insulting and defamatory.

"the only reason I'm not in the military is because I can't be infantry."

Answer: The US military doesn't need or want you with that attitude.

"I think I'm strong enough, I think I'm good enough, I think if I went I'd be qualified to fight."

Answer: What you think is of absolutely no concern, and would not be a consideration even if women were permitted entry into the very few combat arms MOSs presently precluded.

"Can't there be some way to make an exception to the no females in infantry/armour/sf rule?"

Answer: No, there can't be any exceptions on this rule, because it would mean people would die. Suppose, for a moment, that I'm right and that placing women into these very few positions would cause terrible morale problems: a decrease in esprit-de-corps, jealousy, perceived and real favoritism, harassment, sexual assaults, and sexual liaisons. All the evidence suggests I'm right, and that is why Congressional mandated study groups have all recommended to keep the combat exclusion. Now let's further assume that you have the grass-roots support to get Congress to mandate the removal of the exclusion. Some feminists believe that obtaining this "non-right" is worth the lives of a few soldiers. How many soliders would need to die because of this reduction in morale, before you'd agree its a bad idea..? Would it be okay if only a few soldiers died, so long as you got what you want..?

"I would not be able to go into the military and say with a strait face that I'm a soldier if I never saw combat."

Answer: This comment makes you sound 12 years old. Thousands of soliders serve honorably without spending one day in a combat zone. Sometimes this is by choice or simply the vagaries of chance, but the implication of your statement is that they aren't real soldiers. Also, many soldiers go to combat zones in the Combat Arms and never fire their weapons in anger, are they less than soldiers too..?

"Maybe if I did something really incredibly dangerous like explosives or something..."

Answer: Again, this is all about you isn't it..? You don't want to join the US military out of patriotism, or loyalty, or even courage...but because you want to show off; people who crave attention are dangerous in combat.

Finally, you used quotations to suggest someone here made a remark and claimed it came from you. As far as I can see nobody else has made this remark, consequently the use of quotations is not only wrong grammatically, but it leaves the impression that someone has misquoted you, and that is a lie. The exact statement follows: "Have I ever said anything like "I think all females are a disgrace to the military and shouldn't be serving because they're too pathetic to give it their all?" No, those are your words."

Answer: Obviously, these aren't our words either as you thought them up, they are in fact your words...except that you are trying to attribute them to us.

You don't belong in the military if you can't comprehend the Army Value of selfless-service. You don't belong in the military if you think APFT scores suggest anything except a basic level of fitness. You don't belong in the military if you can't respect your superiors, and salute and say "Yes Sir" even when you disagree. You don't belong in the US military if you can't understand that at times your personal desires must take a back seat to the needs of the military. In short, you don't belong in the military.

[Anonymous]

Gosh you think I'm the one making falacies? Fight me, then come back and say I'm pathetic and weak and apperently overweight. at 160, I could probably take you down and systematically break every bone in your body, and I'm betting most of the other girls at my gym could too. "Oh no god forbid, they're girls, ewww," get over yourself man, I'm done talking to you. You're one of those people who would have said "absolutely not" when congress desegregated the military to allow african americans in. Oh, like black people in a racist military didn't "upset" some team cohesion. People got over it, its what they do. Get over your stupid juvenile guy code because that argument is dead. You know damn well that females can integrate into a male matrix, stop living in the past.

Why are you making a big deal over my typo's? What the heck is wrong with you? Why are you so against me? I haven't attacked you once and I don't intend to! Why is my gender making you so insecure? YOU are not listening to me. Do not talk to me about falacies, you're the one whose making them left and right. The article I sited stated that a recruit with one leg was going through jump school. Don't jump down my throat LT, its only going to get you frustrated.

This place is worthless if there's no one here who agrees with me. A debating society! This board makes the same arguments over and over again. "Women in Combat" has been posted at least 50 times. Doesn't anyone get tired of talking?

Man, you must really be some sort of nymphomaniac if you'd be one to think about screwing your female teammate on the front line. If it would cause SOOOO much disturbance having females in these MOS's, why isn't it causing such a disturbance in the MOS's they are allowed in? Now you insult me saying that my presence alone would kill somebody. It didn't do anything on my wrestling team, no one gave a crap that I was a girl and I never pointed it out.

What is your objective? To change my mind? I actually posted an apology to shut you up and yet you still have the nerve to come and tell me that I have no place in "your world." Who do you think you are, and who are you to talk down to me? How many times have I told you I'm not interested in talking to you, I'm searching for someone who agrees with me. You apperently don't agree with me, so I'm not looking for you.

If you really want to debate me on this, I can use the exact same arguments that people used to keep blacks and jews out of the military. Enough about physical fitness standards, plenty of women have already proven that they can handle the "physical duress" of training. If you build it they will come. You aperently are aprehensive about have a female next to you in combat, that you're somehow afraid that you are going to protect her or something. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what you're supposed to do, what each other's backs??? I'm guessing you've never had a female fight alongside of you, my bet is that it would go completely out of your mind once the shooting started. Morale would

Women in combat would not get people killed. I'm shaking my head right now trying to figure out where in the world your rationale is coming from. If its so wrong, why does the air force do it?

http://www.vnis.com/story.cfm?textnewsid=1563

A pilot has a higher chance of getting shot down or captured than an infantryman, so I'll bet you think the airforce is getting away with murder. And no I didn't misread anything. You acuse me of setting up a straw man fallacie, which I didn't because I made an argument, I did not refute it, I accuse you of jumping on the bandwagon, just because everyone says something doesn't mean its so.

You cannot sit where you are with a straight face and say that not a single womam in the world can pass male standards. I know I can, if you build it they will come. Make available some way for an exception to be made, if a female measures up to the top males, then she's in, simple as that. Don't hold back the .5% that can just to keep out the 99% that can't. From what I understand, military conscription turnout is dropping dramatically. There are lots of highly qualified women in the military whose shall I say desperately needed skills are being wasted, all because some shumks think it will interfere with "guy code." BS and you know it.

We should meet one day. Eventually there will be females in combat, so so so so many of them have already proven themselves, and when congress finally stops being so ultra-conservative, I'll step up, and you'll still be retired.

[Anonymous]

P.S.

Don't ever say I'm not patriotic. My family is a military family, my grandfather drove a tank in WWII, my uncles are all Special Forces, whom btw all support me. 5 of my best friends are all in Iraq right now, we all went through school together and I'm so pissed off that I can't be right there beside them watching their backs. I would have gone with them, but it wouldn't have done any good. They'd get to fight, I'd have to stay back. I thought it would be better if I went through college first and hopefully by the time I got out I'd be able to follow them as an officer. But this isn't happening fast enough. I could very well go to Canada where I'd get to fight, but I don't want to fight for Canada, I want to fight for MY country. This is why I'm talking, to be able to fight for my country, my views, my freedom, my familiy's freedom, because I understand freedom isn't free. Do not try to give me lesson on patriotism, I want to be the best that I can be for my country. I don't want to be the best that I'm allowed to be, but the best that I can be, and not for some other country that I don't know anything about for the sad truth that I wasn't allowed to defend my own homeland.

When you're my drill instructor, then I'll salute you, but until that day comes, screw off LT.

[webadmin]

This is not about what you want, but rather what is best for the military. Whether you like it or not, you are a woman, and by law, your are prohibited from serving in direct ground combat units. You could be Wonder Woman and you still would be prohibited because that is the law of the land. That does not mean that the law can't or won't change, it just means that this isn't about you.

If you had study at all the history of women in the military, then you would have the answer to your own question. Opportunity presents itself and people, whether men or women, arise to the occasion. Prior to 1994 women were restricted by what was called the risk rule, I won't go into it, you look it up and learn. However, that rule was changed, not because of an individual, but because of the performance of women who had been deployed in support MOSs.

You are very quick to dismiss pogues, yet you have no idea what being in a support MOS requires. Every support MOS has was is called a secondary mission, which in most cases becomes their primary mission in a combat situation. That mission entails what is needed for combat. Keep in mind also, that no matter what rank or what MOS you hold, when you go through any type of leadership course, the emphasis of that course is centered around combat. These support MOSs become the example of what can be done and in what circumstances.

You seem to think that going into combat requires only strength and the will to fight, but it is much more than that. You have to know tactics, understand the enemy, understand the command, and understand your fellow soldiers. Your attitude is all one of me and that will get you killed every time. You have to have the trust of that squad to which you are assigned and be able to read what their strengths and weaknesses are. You say that you desire to be Special Forces, but you wouldn't be accepted because you can't see beyond yourself. To get into Special Forces requires more than just being physically fit, you must also be mentally fit. I am sure the LTC Bailey can verify what I am going to say and that is that even among men, the acceptance rate into Special Forces is very low and graduation rate can be low in numbers also. It takes a special person to be Special Forces. Even to become a Ranger is not an easy task. Don't even get me started on Navy SEALs or Delta Force, but in each of these specialties you must better than the best.

I am also not saying that you wouldn't qualify to be infantry, but I am saying that at this point in time, you cannot. There are a lot of things in this life that are not fair, but change doesn't come from saying if I can't play I'm going to take my ball and go home. Change comes from sticking it out during the hard times and working towards a better tomorrow. It doesn't matter if you are a PT goddess who has the brains of Einstein, if you don't have the trust of your comrades in arms, then you become a liability rather than an asset. Believe me there are plenty of women in the military that are all this and more and no they don't accept completely that they are not allowed into certain areas. That is why there are groups out there that are working towards change and they base much of what they use for argument directly on proven performance of women who have been or are in the service.

I believe that women will serve in combat and the time will be in the not so distant future. Maybe ten to twenty years from now, but it will come because there are women on the ground that are serving above and beyond the call of duty. I also know enough about the military to know that if this change comes, there are many things that it will affect and issues that have to be addressed before it can happen.

[LTC William E. Bailey]

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[west_coastie]

Once again, I defer to the LtCol. You should do the military a favor and stick to wrestling. For someone who has never served, yet presumes to know everything about the military, you show yourself to be too immature and disrespectful to wear a uniform. Regardless of how emotionally charged the issue is, you NEVER address a senior officer in the tone you have taken. It only demonstrates your lack of self control. Your inability to debate the matter without resorting to threats of physical violence is appalling. If you were under my command and exhibited the sort of demeanor you portray on this website, I would relieve you of your weapon and send you to psych for an eval.

[sinofangels]

im a senior in high school right now at the end of this year im going to join the marines not the reserves because just like mma i like a challenge so im making it a career. i dont completely agree with eighter mma or LTC Bailey.
mma all ur proving by this argument is that u have a big ego and maybe ur just too afraid to join so u use the excuse that u wont join cause u cant be right in the front shooting at everyone. what u dont see is dat in order for us to win wars there has to be intelligence as well not just brute strenght. if all we did was go out dere and fight without a plan we would loose deres no way we would be one of the strongest countys. so if u wanna prove that woman do belong dere den go join and prove it to dem. just like you i wish i could go out dere and fight but i kno dat if i did the men would have problems with it and they wouldent be able to fight as well and also i kno that im not as strong as those men sure i could keep up but wat if for some reason i cant then i just doomed all does men to death i have a question for you could you really live knowing that if you werent keeping them back they woul have a better chance at surviving?

LTC Bailey now i agree with mostly all that u said but looking at how men and women are now a days i think that your opininon is laking that. see i got to high school with lots of guys and girls so i notice things like dis and what i noticed is that women are emotionally equal to men i meet so guys that are even more emotional than i am and women who are emotional but know how to keep it in check. now physically of course men are stronger than women theres no argument dere so instead of grouping men whit women they should group men w/ men and women w/ women this way there would be no weak link . i think that if women pass the requierments to be in combat then they should be allowed

see my way of proving that women do belong in the military is joining and well showing them that not all women are the same. even if i cant do combat i could still be a pilot,mechanic, or a nurse those are 3 very important jobs (that i kno of)

P.S i would like to hear from someone whose an active duty female marine just to see what other options there is for women in the marines. oh sry i dident spell most of the words out or even spelled them right its just a bad habbit

[Lane]

Well, my first order of business is to thank mma for her amazing display of comical arrogance. You had me yelling and laughing at the same time and I must say I do love a good belly laugh. However, the disrespect you showed to LTC Bailey was very disgraceful and at times just plain annoying. Please don't join the military. You are extremely arrogant and immature. In fact, I was very surprised to read that you are actually a year older than me. Im going to begin learning Arabic and when I graduate high school I'll enlist in the Marine Corp and hopefully get an MOS in the Intelligence area. Then, if possible, I'll volunteer to go to Iraq and do whatever I can to aid my country and people. To me you don't sound like you want to defend our country, you sound more like you just want to fulfill some dream of yours. Besides, you're obviously not mature enough to handle something as serious and painful as combat.

And to LTC Bailey...
You are a very strong and intelligent man. Thankyou for everything you have done for this country and its people.
To all veterans and all the men and women currently in service, thankyou. -Lane